[Edited 5/20/2012] As of now it is my understanding that the listings here have all been agreed upon and confirmed with some specific exceptions (gubbinz prices are still subject to change, since I don't think anybody noticed when I edited to add them last week). Also, I've linked this to the sidebar since it's about to get buried.
Omitted Scenarios:
- Da Chase (because it's a pain to actually play) Ruling: Playable subject to mutual agreement by participating players.
Clarifications:
- The Scortcha 'eavy weapon cannot be kustomized by the meks. Due to the special rules associated with it it can't suffer from most of the "bodged job" or reduced performance table results. That, and I'm of the opinion that a ST 5 auto hit weapon is probably overpowered (it sure seemed that way last time I saw one). Confirmed: No longer allowed
- [Added]Since vehicles are unable to ram during a slow speed maneuver it's possible to sandwich them between an impassible object and another vehicle parked directly to the rear, effectively trapping them until they de-ass and board the trapping vehicle (which they'll likely be doing under copious amounts of fire). When this was pointed out during the test games it was mutually agreed that this was a "total dick move". If somebody does do this the player on the receiving end will be allowed to punch the offending player in the face as hard as he/she can for every turn in continues. [Confirmed: If you intentionally do this we wont stop people from punching you in the face]
- Because shields are classified as "armour" and not a "weapon" drivers can shoot a one handed weapon while operating their vehicle and still get all of the benefits of a shield by the RAW. Confirmed: No longer allowed (drivers and gunners can still have and benefit from shields, just not while operating a vehicle or a mounted weapon).
Proposed Changes and Additions:
- Further Edited: New 'Eavy Shoota statline. [Confirmed]
| Short Range | Long Range | To Hit Short | To Hit Long | Str. | Save Mod. | Dam. | Ammo | Notes |
| 12 | 30 | +1 | - | 4 | -2 | 1 | 4+ | 2 Sustained Fire dice, Knockback |
Vehicles can only be kustomized once before automatically taking a performance hit. Ex. After Grodsnik has a mek make his truk 'Eavier he wants to make it Smarter. Even if he gets the "Job's a Good 'Un" result he must roll on the effect chart under the Smarter upgrade for reduced performance.[Redacted]- Each ram gives only one penetrating hit for the purposes of determining experience at the end of a game regardless of how locations you actually damaged. I think this is the rule we came up with during the previous GoMo campaign when we noticed ramming was a particularly effective method of leveling up drivers. It might not be needed any longer now that we're using a slower advancement chart. [Confirmed]
- Use the Ork Klan rules (from The Unnamed GorkaMorka Site) instead of the normal Gorker/Morker ork "races". Personally, I'm bored of the normal all Gorker + Oddmob campaigns we usually end up with such that I'd welcome a little bit of variety and these deliver without the complications of adding what is effectively a whole new oddmob (like many of the new faction rules you see online).[Confirmed w/exception]: Bad Moonz start with an additional 7 teef instead of 15]
- Vehicle Carrying Capacity [Confirmed]
- Truk Capacity: 6+Driver and Gunner
- Trak Capacity: 4+Driver and Gunner
- Bike Capacity: 1+Driver
- Price increase for selected Gubbinz [Confirmed]
- Wrecker Ball: 20 teef
- Big Grabber: 20 teef
- 'Xtra Armour Plates: 10 teef
Removed From League Rules and Added Here:
- Experience required to advance increased by 150% [Confirmed]
- Kustomizin costs increased by 50% (rounding up) [Confirmed]
On Omitted Scenarios
ReplyDeleteI'd like to try the Chase, but I won't be heartbroken if its gone.
Clarifications
Oh, you're just a whiny git, aren't you? :P
Vague/Cheesy
Shields should count as a "weapon" for the purposes of holding something. Allowing them to use it while driving and shooting is very, very cheesy.
Omitted/Changes
- If you nerf the 'Eavy Shoota that much, you need to lower the price. At that point, you are getting a Spear Gun with 12" more range. That doesn't equate to the near-doubly of price. I think a lower fire rate along with reduced range will work better.
- So vehicles take a hit on their first customization instead of their second? I guess I'm okay with that, but I think we can figure out a better change. Perhaps an increase in price and difficulty for doing the same mod twice?
- Agreed. Otherwise drivers go up way, way too quickly.
- I haven't read them all the way through, but having a bunch of Gorkers versus Oddmobz is definitely getting boring. Having different mobs could liven things up, especially if they are distinct enough.
"- If you nerf the 'Eavy Shoota that much, you need to lower the price."
DeleteI'm not so sure. 12" of extra range is nothing to sneeze at. That's two thrust moves you don't have to make (and a -1 to shooting) in order to be in range. That and it does get an additional -1 save mod. However, I'd rather give it a +1 at half range (which is more internally consistent) than ST 5.
"- So vehicles take a hit on their first customization instead of their second?"
No, you take it on the second kustomization regardless of it's type. Normally you can make a vehicle smarter, eavier, and faster before taking the performance hit. This way you can only do one of those before taking the hit.
I'm not so sure. 12" of extra range is nothing to sneeze at. That's two thrust moves you don't have to make (and a -1 to shooting) in order to be in range. That and it does get an additional -1 save mod. However, I'd rather give it a +1 at half range (which is more internally consistent) than ST 5.
DeleteEh, making it a slightly better Spear Gun still seems wrong to. You need to give it a better niche than just "longer range".
No, you take it on the second kustomization regardless of it's type. Normally you can make a vehicle smarter, eavier, and faster before taking the performance hit. This way you can only do one of those before taking the hit.
Huh, didn't remember that. I guess that's okay, but I think we need to figure out more customizations as well.
"Eh, making it a slightly better Spear Gun still seems wrong to. You need to give it a better niche than just "longer range"
DeleteI think that was the intent of the designers. Both the Spear Gun and the Harpoon Gun are basically the "tier 1" version of the Eavy Shoota and the Rokkit Launcher. (respectively). And again, an additional 12" is a bigger deal then you're implying (remember, that's an additional foot of overwatch area control).
Fair enough. I think the big debate, then, really comes down to what to do with the 'Eavy Shoota. At this point, I would say just take it out. Anything with it can just be an alternate form of Spear Gun (Or rapid-fire cannon); the thing is already one modification away from being an 'Eavy Shoota, so why not just cut the damned thing?
DeleteBecause I still want an eavy shoota, I just don't want it to facilitate and reward a playstyle that doesn't fit with the spirit of the game (sitting at the edge of the deployment zone machine gunning everything).
DeleteOmitted scenarios, the chase sucks, this is the New Rule re The Chase scenario; In the event that The Chase is the scenario rolled up EITHER player may opt to re-roll the scenario, if it comes up The Chase again you must play that scenario.
ReplyDeleteClarification: Scortcha's cannot be kustomized
Vague/Cheesy: Drivers cannot use shields whilst driving.
Proposed Changes:
I think with the increased cost of upgrades that 'Eavy Shootas may just work without any changes
The same holds true for Truk upgrades, the increased cost of improvements should slow down the rate at which truks get upgraded while exposing them to more opportunities to get damaged.
The Ramming thing works for me, but then, most of my stuff can't ram so that may just be a self-serving jusgement.
The new Ork Klans look interesting, how about everybody take a look at them and we will meet again to dis/agree if we want to use them. Added flavor without extra complication is fun.
I forget who suggested the "While U Wuz Out" scenario but it was a great one. A returning mob finds their Fort has been occupied by an opposing Mob and must fight to re-capture it. We need to work out the details of the force in the fort (did they have to leave anybody holding their fort? did they take any casualties when they took over the fort? etc) I would assume that any mob members left behind to work the mine would have holed-up in the mine to keep the invaders out; thus the mine cannot be destroyed by the invaders. Further thoughts are more than welcome.......
"I think with the increased cost of upgrades that 'Eavy Shootas may just work without any changes"
DeleteIt's not an upgrade problem (although that certainly plays a role), it's a "to much bang for the buck (toof)" problem. The current Eavy Shoota is worth considerably more than 2 teef over a Rokkit Launcher (It's arguably worth more than the truk/buggy or trak it's mounted on). My solution might not be the proverbial "one", but previous campaigns have shown pretty well that it's ripe for abuse (I should know, I was one of the people that did it). Alternate suggestions are welcome, but we've gone down the "leave it alone" road before and it didn't work.
"The same holds true for Truk upgrades, the increased cost of improvements should slow down"
Nah. With a 50% increase in price we're talking a whopping 2 toof average markup (assuming you round all fractions up) on vehicle upgrades. Not exactly poverty inducing.
"I forget who suggested the "While U Wuz Out" scenario but it was a great one."
That was me, but I'm still trying to hash out the details. Be warned, it's currently intended as an Oddmob only scenario.
The eavy shoota is fine where its at per the rules. It's good at being a heavy machine gun but it's expensive. It rolls a lot of dice and has a higher chance of running out of ammo, well within the spirit of being an ork weapon.
ReplyDeleteDespite the events of the last two campaigns the eavy shoot has had a long tradition of NOT dominating the game. The anti-"leave it alone" road as it's been called ignores previous results in those campaigns. I have used all (except the skorcha) the heavy weapons through multiple campaigns as my various primary heavy weapon and have never found the eavy shoota beyond dominating in a game and have actually had much more success with the harpoon.
With the eavy shoota there's no problem in the "spirit of the game", there is a problem with the spirit of the player. If people want to sit at the edge, they are allowed to do that. Just because people do that (and i'm not saying I like or approve that style) doesnt mean we should change to rules to compensate. Perhaps we just dont play with people who are labeled "abusers" as a solution.
The two stat lines presented for eavy shoot are beyond ridiculous. Stripping away its range, ability to hit, strength and save modifier? Ridiculous. Why even have it at that point?
"It rolls a lot of dice and has a higher chance of running out of ammo....."
DeleteIt has the best ammo roll in the game (4+) and rolling those extra dice is optional.
"Despite the events of the last two campaigns the eavy shoot has had a long tradition of NOT dominating the game. The anti-"leave it alone" road as it's been called ignores previous results in those campaigns."
That it hadn't occurred before the previous two campaigns doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. Both of the players who used it in the previous campaigns (Tom and myself) did dominate and admitted that it was a problem.
"Just because people do that (and i'm not saying I like or approve that style) doesnt mean we should change to rules to compensate. Perhaps we just dont play with people who are labeled "abusers" as a solution."
Why have something that facilitates and rewards a playstyle that (I think I speak for everyone here) we don't want? Why have the option available at all if it's not something we desire to see explored? I mean I understand the sentiment of "blame the player, not the rules", but I don't think the previous incidents are indicative of abuse. It just happens that the Eavy Shoota supports a very low risk, high reward playstyle that's easy fall into.
"Stripping away its range, ability to hit, strength and save modifier?"
The range and strength of the current listing is ridiculous. 40" of range at st 5 with up to 6 shots is way too good for only 2 teef more than a Rokkit Launcher. Even with the alternate listings it's still has:
1. The longest eavy weapon range (30")
2. The highest eavy weapon rof (2sus dice)
3. The best ammo roll (4+)
4. Depending on which one it's also the accurate long range weapon (no mods)
I'm not married to either of the alternates suggested, but keeping the original doesn't serve anyone's goals. It just leaves an opening for the game to be ruined. Why have that?
I deleted most of my post, but it generally follows Dan's comments. While these statlines may not be where we end up (And if the statline gets changed, the price can be changed as well), there's no point in keeping something we've said was broken or easily abused for years. And I don't know about you guys, but I certainly had a campaign cut short by weedy use of an 'Eavy Shoota, and that was not one of the last two. It's only become more apparent because our campaigns are now actually spanning more than 3 games, rather than the brief ones we used to run so many years ago.
DeleteMan, this comment system needs an edit button.
"That it hadn't occurred before the previous two campaigns doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. Both of the players who used it in the previous campaigns (Tom and myself) did dominate and admitted that it was a problem."
ReplyDeleteIt was used time and time again before in earlier campaigns (which lasted multiple months and much much more than 3 games. so that's incorrect. i dont know where you were kris) was never automatically the determining factor in who won.
regarding the running out of ammo, it has a higher chance because of the "jam" (ammo roll) on the sustained fire dice. Which is the whole risk of it's highest rate of fire. Saying it has the "best" ammo roll is incorrect/misleading. Just about everything has a 4+ so that's no different, maybe "equal" would fit better in context. But you are rolling it far more often than any other gun.
Rokkit launcher has strength 6, D6 damage and a -3 save modifier. which are better than the eavy shoota. Very distinct advantages over eavy shoota.
Your alternates summary is also misleading:
(rokkit also goes 30", it is not singly the longest ranged eavy weapon)
(best ammo roll, true... kind of. but more accuratly "equal")
(spear gun also has 2sus fire dice, so not singly the highest rof eavy weapon)
(accuracy, ignoring the scorcha, out of the other three, yes it is the most accurate)
Then only problem before was the rapid skill/stat accumulation for campaigns. I dont see the need to monkey around with the core game rules.
"It was used time and time again before in earlier campaigns [snip] was never automatically the determining factor in who won."
DeleteAgain, this doesn't matter. We're not arguing whether or not the problem exists. It does. That it didn't manifest in campaigns before the previous two is ultimately irrelevant. The st 5 Scortcha wasn't a problem in previous campaigns either, but that didn't stop us from acknowledging and fixing it. Yes, the game can be played with the Eavy Shoota as written and there is no assurance that people *will* abuse it. However, keeping it as written only serves to keep an open avenue to breaking the game, regardless of the offending player's actual intentions. Why not modify it so that it's still effective but not supportive a playstyle that nobody likes or wishes to see explored?
"Saying it has the "best" ammo roll is incorrect/misleading. Just about everything has a 4+ so that's no different, maybe "equal" would fit better in context. But you are rolling it far more often than any other gun."
It's not misleading, it does have the best ammo roll in the game. The most favorable ammo test in the game is at 4+, ergo it is the best ammo roll. Saying "equal" vs "best" because other weapons have 4+ ammo tests is just semantics.
"regarding the running out of ammo, it has a higher chance because of the "jam" (ammo roll) on the sustained fire dice. Which is the whole risk of it's highest rate of fire."
You have the *option* to roll those sustained fire dice. You also have the option to shoot 1 shot per turn like everything else and run a lower risk of ammo shortage. Having that option is an advantage, one you'd have to pay for on other weapons.
"Rokkit launcher has strength 6, D6 damage and a -3 save modifier. which are better than the eavy shoota. Very distinct advantages over eavy shoota."
It also has a -1 to hit at most ranges it can shoot and 6+ ammo test. Which means if it does manage a hit it's considerably more likely to run out of ammo. And the Eavy Shoota can basically recreate the D6 damage stat in the aggregate by hitting more consistently with more shots at a wider variety of ranges without needing to move (let alone thrust).
"Your alternates summary is also misleading:
(rokkit also goes 30", it is not singly the longest ranged eavy weapon)
(best ammo roll, true... kind of. but more accuratly "equal")
(spear gun also has 2sus fire dice, so not singly the highest rof eavy weapon)
(accuracy, ignoring the scorcha, out of the other three, yes it is the most accurate)"
It's not misleading. Even with the alternates it still has, *collectively*, some of the best stats in the game. One other weapon has a 30" range. Nothing else is as accurate at 30". Nothing else has two sustained fire dice at 30". It has the most favorable available ammo test. It also has knockback. The only thing it pales in comparison to is the original Eavy Shoota. But like I said, I'm flexible. I just don't want the 40" death ray that we currently have.
"I dont see the need to monkey around with the core game rules."
This isn't monkeying with the core rules, we're altering a single stat line not moving to a new melee combat system or something. Seriously, what's the worst case scenario if we make a terrible stat line? Near as I can tell the only potential loss here is having one weapon (and the baggage it carries, which we don't want anyway) that nobody buys while keeping it as written only preserves the potential "I Win" button. Honestly I see no real benefit to keeping it while changing it (even if we do ruin it) only serves fix something we know has potential to break the game.
SIDENOTE: I forget to put in truk carrying capacity as one of the suggestions. So that'll be up in a minute.
"Again, this doesn't matter. We're not arguing whether or not the problem exists. It does. That it didn't manifest in campaigns before the previous two is ultimately irrelevant."
ReplyDeleteWell, I guess my point (using lengthy past histories) was that it was NOT a problem. In fact, in the second to last campaign only two people were actually killed by an eavy shoota. So saying in the last TWO campaigns it was the end all "I Win" "death ray" is not true. In one campaign it was that. One out of many. (in Mikes last game on saturday it wasnt dominant. at all. and he slowed for at least two rounds of close range shooting without thrusting and still didnt automatically win by having one. he ran out of ammo.)
i'm not getting into the whole semantics thing which is just ignorant.
my comments about monkeying with the core rules was to simply to differentiate between my opinion on changing core rules (weapon stats, which are in the core rules...) vs changing campaign rules (uvver book, experience). so yes, you are changing a core rule.
and if we are going to decide core rules are needing changing:
let's start with leadership values. where their current values make ramming highly unlikely. (you want to talk about spirit of game? how do you ignore that?)
bikes: why do they have the same armor values as a truk? less cost (half) and only downside is they cant carry heavy weapons (which one of them is coincidentally getting weaker). Dont point out it causes no damage in a ram, unless you're going to decide to change leadership values (above). even if we do assign them a carrying capacity that doesnt change the fact that they're still too heavily armored.
Why does a bike not count as a large target? why does a boy on foot not count as a small target? there is no size difference if he's sitting on a motorcycle? (which is roughly half the size of a truk) that's broken. (the rules cite measurements to determine large/small. but that's just the rules. i think we need to change that.)
Despite those I still dont think we should change anything. In fact I'm strongly opposed to changing anything. even if we have to go back to using normal experience progression, which i detest most. (beyond the game as a whole) Just let it play out. I've been at the winning end and losing end and everywhere inbetween and it's never been the weapon or rules against me. It's getting the right luck at the right time.
"Well, I guess my point (using lengthy past histories) was that it was NOT a problem. In fact, in the second to last campaign only two people were actually killed by an eavy shoota. So saying in the last TWO campaigns it was the end all "I Win" "death ray" is not true."
DeleteActual "deaths" don't really signify a lot. Number of models taken out of action and damaged vehicles per game would be more telling. In the two campaigns in question, both Tom and I dominated. I took zero loses and I think Tom took one (against me, when he didn't have a truk).
That said, I don't understand the extreme resistance to the suggestion of a single statline change. We *know* that the Eavy Shoota is capable of breaking the game, because it happened (to answer your question of how I ignored the things you mentioned, I've never seen bikes or ramming break the game so they didn't make the post). Even ignoring that, we know that it supports a particular play style that we don't have an interest in seeing and that it's the only weapon that allows said playstyle to exist. I'm just trying to see the benefits of keeping it original and hoping it doesn't get abused vs changing it and ensuring that it can't be abused. So far, I've just not seen any incentive to go with the former. That's all.
If you actually want the things above changed, say so and I'll post them and we can discuss a solution.
"I took zero loses and I think Tom took one"
ReplyDelete^so that comment is as irrelevant as you decided mine about only two deaths by eavy shoota was.
I dont understand the demand to disassemble the worth of the eavy shoota based on what happened in ONE campaign. (Tom has only played one campaign with us. the same one where he left his dice in my house. so unless somehow he managed to play another gorkamorka campaign secretly without me seeing him to return those same dice, there was only one) Even if it does allow a style of play you dont like, it's been used the same way in the past with lackluster results. Richard used it (always) as a long range weapons platform and never did as well as you and tom did. and he played a lot more games using it than you two. I too have used it the same way and it was never the automatic win that you're making it out to be.
You are making out our own earlier campaigns as well as the game designers campaigns to be something of an anomaly to have ever occurred with parity.
Ramming being unlikely is well out of the spirit of the game and so needs to be addressed. it might not have popped up on your radar because it doesnt, and will not, happen often. the chances to avoid are far too high.
The bikes are a different issue because they havnt been concentrated on as they were uncommonly fielded as primary mode of transport for an entire mob. There armor is too high for their cheap cost and counting as a normal size target (no bonus to hit) is too effective (which could be seen in mikes last game, though we errored in not using the 7+ to hit chart). So if we are going to do this, we might as well fix them before they too get "abused".
We've had problems with 'Eavy Shootas before, and you've already recognized it is a problem. I know I've voiced my concerns about this before because I've seen it dominate games multiple times. The biggest mitigating factor we've had with it is that it's easily the most common vehicle gun we use (the runner-up being the Harpoon Gun), so we can generally strike back if necessary.
DeleteAnd I'm okay with looking at bikes, but they do have some rather stark disadvantages: They aren't really cheaper, as to transport your mob with them you'll need about 4 (unless you are a rather small mob and will get by on 3). That's 30-40 points even before weapons, while we've never had a problem with a trukk transporting 8 guys. You also have to have another Spanner, which is another cost and a boy who won't generate income for you. When they do get rammed (And the chance of getting rammed is equal for trukks and bikes), they get nailed; Gary's mob spent most of last game being shoved and pushed by Mike's trukk and when he did catch one, he wrecked it completely for no cost to himself. You do get advantages, but there are real drawbacks that just aren't there with the 'Eavy Shoota.
But if you have suggestions for solutions, say 'em. Perhaps giving a penalty to your LD test depending on the aspect you are rammed from? On Bikes, I could see lowering the armor of a few places to make them a bit more vulnerable. What's your take?
""I took zero loses and I think Tom took one"
ReplyDelete^so that comment is as irrelevant as you decided mine about only two deaths by eavy shoota was."
Loses meaning games, not deaths.
"I dont understand the demand to disassemble the worth of the eavy shoota based on what happened in ONE campaign. (Tom has only played one campaign with us. the same one where he left his dice in my house. so unless somehow he managed to play another gorkamorka campaign secretly without me seeing him to return those same dice, there was only one)"
I know Tom only played in one campaign. I never meant to suggest he played in both campaigns where it was an issue (when I beat Tom I was playing a biker mob).
That said, I don't see either of use convincing the other on the 'Eavy Shoota issue at this juncture. My point (and I think your's as well) has been made and I'm comfortable letting John arbitrate it.
"Ramming being unlikely is well out of the spirit of the game and so needs to be addressed. it might not have popped up on your radar because it doesnt, and will not, happen often. the chances to avoid are far too high."
We could add modifiers depending on the type of ram (like -1 LD to dodge a t-bone, -2 LD to dodge a rear-end etc). That said, I don't think they're *far* too high. For the most part it's a 50/50 test.
"The bikes are a different issue because they havnt been concentrated on as they were uncommonly fielded as primary mode of transport for an entire mob. There armor is too high for their cheap cost and counting as a normal size target (no bonus to hit) is too effective (which could be seen in mikes last game, though we errored in not using the 7+ to hit chart). So if we are going to do this, we might as well fix them before they too get "abused"."
Calling bikes too cheap for their relative effectiveness is a bit much. I don't see how Mike/Gary's game really proves it either. Gary took perm. damage to a bike, made off with less scrap, and lost the game. Mike's only loss was a single ork. The one other instance in which a biker mob has been used (the previous campaign) it didn't dominate or show any indications of breaking anything (not that I saw or was made privy to at the time anyway).
it's only about a 40% chance of actually being rammed using starting stats. so the chances are actually just going to fall as the game goes on. unless you're dumb enough to let a grot drive ...........................................................................................................................................................looking at you john.
ReplyDeletedropping the eavy shoota to range 30" with a +1 within 12" short range, and dropping from str5 to str4 but giving it knockback is at least tolerable. it remains a longer ranged weapon (like it should be) and it's specials are anti-infantry oriented. With only those changes I can at least feel like i'm not being jewed at 15teef (even if i dont like it still) but the other stat lines pretty much ruin the weapon and there's no way you could price it the same. (extended range spear gun?)
the differences in eavy shoota to speargun are its range, short range accuracy, strength and save modifier. dropping the eavy shoota strength to a 4 but giving it knockback at least saves it from losing something for nothing in an effort to reduce anti-vehicle penetration. giving it a +1 at short but keeping it's range out to 30" keeps it from just becoming another speargun. i dont see ANY reason to take away or lower its -2 save modifier. If you want to drop it anti-armor ability and make it an anti-infantry weapon why take away a stat that only affects infantry? even a spear gun is already a -1.
10pts to turbo boost an ork with 8-10 armor looks rather cheap. yes, you do need at least two spanners to start your bike mob, but other mobs should be buying their second vehicle and spanner up front too so that's not really an argument. if they choose not to that's really their stupid mistake. perhaps a 6ish armor value on the driver would be better. he is sitting on the bike.... not in it. i understand frontal and rear target aspect, which is why i think he should still get an armor value, not a 0 like extra riders.
my point about mikes game which was true (we told him multiple times he could not hit because the bikes were over 6 to hit (again I acknowledge we failed to use the 7+ to hit)) despite a bike being able to carry its driver, passenger, twin-linked weapons and multiple scrap, it's still the same size as a single model on foot? i disagree with that.
I'm cool with your changes; it is still better than a Speargun while not completely blowing everything away in stats. Giving it the +1 at close also gives it a reason to want to get up close, something that wasn't present in the as-written stats. Keeping its Save Mod doesn't make as big a difference to me as lowering its strength, so I would be in favor of keeping it at a -2.
DeleteOn Bikes: I think the mob makeup that you are forced makes the mass-usage of bikes far riskier for the price. I mean, Dan was basically getting by with a nob, two spanners, and at least one boy and one yoof. He's making a max of 2d6+d3 teef, so he's almost completely relying on picking up scrap to get any cash, and he barely has any weapons outside of what's on a bike (and God help him if he loses one of those). I'd say if you are doing anything, lower the driver to a 7: he's still going to get hit about a third of the time (since crew goes to the driver) and that'll give him a half-half save against the weakest weapons out there.
As to the "to hit", bikes are bigger than guys, but a lot smaller than trukks (depends on the bike, but I'd say less than half the size). If we are making it easier to hit the driver, I'd say leave the modifier as-is. I think the increased chance of plunking the driver is going to probably do more damage than we think.
For S&G:
- Trukk: 6 guys in back. That's 8 guys, which is a decent-sized mob.
- Trakk: 4 guys in back works for me. An "increased space" gubbins could come in handy.
- Bike: 1 passenger.
I'd also say that a vehicle can only hold as much scrap as it can passengers.
This talk of space makes me want to make up a new class for buggies, which would just be weapons platforms with little to no extra space for passengers (Maybe one at most).
If we did one or the other, I would rather it be it counts as a large target. They would get hit a more often but it's still got just as good armor as other vehicles. There's nothing fragile about bikes outside of rams. They have the one spot that is unarmored (which defaults to an armored spot if empty) but other than that they still roll the same as everyone else on post-game damage. God help US if we lose a truk.
DeleteI think the gubbins that exist are fine.
Buggy with lower cost and two passengers would be tempting. But as much as a buggy class would be interesting, idk if we need to keep adding more and more to this.
Going back to the original debates: Not a fan of any more than one upgrade auto defects your vehicle.
regarding the klan rules, i like the different people getting different skills, but I dont like all of the different special rules. Why cant Goffs get grotz? Makari is a grot AND Ghazghkull's banner waver...
scenario-wise: I think an urban enviroment where two mobs are raiding a mek's workshop while he's out is a good scenario. Like the seige but no defender. I dont know how to get grotz in that scenario though as nobody will accept a lugga rolling through mektown...
For the Mech's shop Raid; Grotz could have infiltrated on foot and would be trying to jack a truk to haul out the stolen goodies (hell, my vehicles aren't worth a damn in a tight fight anyways, I wouldn't want them around in a city fight!).
DeleteIn Re small targets vs large etc we best leave that alone or my Grotz will be agitating for "small target" status while the Snots demand a new "tiny target" classification.
To my mind the 'Eavy Shoota could easily be resolved by adding a bit more terrain. This would stop it from sweeping half the table with fire and create lanes of appproach, it would still reward good tactical positioning of the weapon and it would neatly side-step this entire problem. I am the biggest victim of the weapon as all of my stuff has weaker armor and toughness and I get knocked back and pinned (and killed) easier than most.
I can live with it the way it stands if we add a bit more cover.
I think everybody is underestimating the effect of the slowed improvement (and increased costs therof), troops will not improve as fast (which means they won't be getting better at hitting with that 'Eavy Shoota as fast) and cost more to replace stuff if broken/damaged will retard other improvements.
Regarding Grotz driving; Could let a Snot drive? That might be hilarious! Not effective, but funny!
DeleteI have tried ramming a couple of times and successfully made contact each time, my shit vehicles break to bits when I ram Orky stuf so I don't do much of it any more.
and for S&Gs i think the trak should be limited to driver, gunner, and 4 people. Its 5 teef cheaper and only loses 1" of thruster. It also gains the ability to drive through difficult terrain with no penalty. I think it should suffer lower carrying capacity to compensate its cheaper cost.
ReplyDelete[New Eavy Shoota statline posted]
ReplyDelete[New Trak carry capacity posted]
On the bike size issue, I'd rather keep bikes normal size with an armor reduction to the driver spot (armor 7 gives st 3 weapons a chance to pen. at 4+, which makes them pretty vulnerable to standard small arms. Remember that when bikes lose a driver without the presence of a passenger they fall over and explode). If it's a real sticking issue we can prohibit them from up-armoring entirely.
In my experience the effective -1 to skill people take for shooting at thrusting bikes is what keeps them competitive. While bikes aren't significantly less durable then truks (at least while shooting at them) they lack access to an anti-vehicle weapon (while also having a very narrow firing arc). While it isn't as apparent early on when everything is kept stock, it quickly changes when people start up armouring truks/traks and uping eavy weapon st.
Purely anecdotal, but this happened the first time I played Tom's mob in We Wuz 'Ere First. I literally had no answer to his armour while his Eavy Weapons had kept up with mine. I'm comfortable with limiting their looting ability similar to what Kris mentioned above. I'd be on board for vehicles being able to carry as much scrap as they can *riders* (so 8 for a truk, 6 for a trak, and 2 for a bike). It came up in the test game, and this would make for an elegant solution.
"Why cant Goffs get grotz?"
I'm not the author, but if I had to venture a guess I'd say it was to balance their ability to start with 3 nobs. If this specifically is a sticking point we can change it. Maybe no Yoofs would better fit the image of "battle hardened warriors only".
"To my mind the 'Eavy Shoota could easily be resolved by adding a bit more terrain."
ReplyDeleteThe problem with adding more terrain came up in the previous game, in that you quickly run into being unable to navigate said terrain. *You* especially suffer from it because your vehicles are gigantic. That said, we managed to come up with a statline that everyone finds tolerable. We could give it a dry run this weekend (seeing as we are supposedly testing mobs) to see if the changes get the desired effect and then make a decision either way.
We will discuss the modified stat line on Saturday, frankly anything that lowers Ork shootiness won't get any objections from me. If you guys are good with it I have no objections.
DeleteMy suggestion about terrain was in the vein of a few well-placed pieces positioned near mid-table would prevent the abuse of the 'Eavy Shoota by creating large-ish blind areas for those players that saw fit to sit on the edge of the world.
If my vehicles run into issues with the density of terrain I can build a few more in a matter of days that are smaller. As long as you guys can manouver truks around we should be OK.
J&R man you are right, no EDIT function sucks, I will look around in the "Gadgets" section to see if there is one that allows editing.
ReplyDeleteWell,
ReplyDeleteNow that I have had some sleep (and redisigned my Diggas for the upteenth time). I realized what was really bugging me about you louts gutting of 'da eavy shoota'. You have turned it into an over priced spear gun. The only differences between a spear gun and the new and abused 'eavy' is the speargun gets one less minus on the armor save (I have never seen this actually matter) and the max range is 18 with a speargun, and 30 with the bastardized 'eavy'. While that sounds more important, I can not recall anyone shooting that far in a game I played or watched. Finally, the Speargun does not get knock back. My Nob with the Kannon never accomplished anything with this so I am unclear of any significance here as well.
"You have turned it into an over priced spear gun."
DeleteBy what possible measure is it overpriced? For *six* extra teef (less than the average cost of two successful trips to mek for kustomizin) you get an additional 12" of area control and knockback and it goes right through most armour. That's 2 teef per upgrade (try and get 12" of extra range for 2 teef anyway else). Not only is it not overpriced, it's arguably a bargain.
Also, it either needed to be toned down or repriced. Originally it got an extra 22" of range, +1 st, and -1 save mod for only 6 extra teef.
"The only differences between a spear gun and the new and abused 'eavy' is the speargun gets one less minus on the armor save (I have never seen this actually matter) and the max range is 18 with a speargun, and 30 with the bastardized 'eavy'."
Yep, those are the only differences. That said, you're massively undervaluing extra range. If two vehicles, one with a speargun and one with an eavy shoota, are 30" away from a target the spear truk will have to thrust twice just to get into range and three times if it wants to shoot as accurately as the eavy shoota.
Bear in mind, that every shot you took with your 'Eavy Shoota in our game was at over 18". Meaning that a Speargun would've gotten you zero shots.
"My Nob with the Kannon never accomplished anything with this so I am unclear of any significance here as well."
It might have something to do with the kannon taking a -1 to hit over more than 3/4 of it's total range, causing you to miss the vast majority of your shots. There's a reason that no one in my mob has a kannon. That said, I going to go out on a limb and say that the two games you've played (which totaled a whopping six-ish turns) don't constitute enough data points to make sweeping statements as to what is or isn't significant.
I will respond paragraph by paragraph.
ReplyDeleteIf range is so important why did you build a gang that can not use range at all? Getting exactly what you pay for is not a bargain (67% increase in range for a 67% increase in price). Taken in that light the New Eavy is a fair deal at range, a bargain at armor modifier and a screwing at the other six stats on the two weapons because you pay 67% more for the same performance.
So under the old stats you got a 120% increase in range, a 25% increase in St and a 100% increase in save mod, with only 5 stats the same. All for a 67 % increase in price, yes that is a better deal.
Again, if range is so important why did you build a gang that can not use it at all? It seems to me that it does not matter much. A spear gun at 18 inches shoots just as accurately as an Eavy at 18 inches. Once in range, there is no difference in their shooting characteristcs.
If the shots were over 18, then the gun would not have run out of ammo and I would have had it when you tried to close, or perhaps even kept you from closing. As it was, the shots accomplished nothing.
A Nob with a BS 4 firing at -1 modifier is the same as a digga with BS 3 firing at no modifier. AT range, I have the same chances of hitting either way, and knockback seems to accomplish nothing.
Two games played and another six or so I have watched you guys play, but it is a small sample size. However, my observations also include that fact that no one else seems to take the weapon with knockback either. So if the experienced players do, or do not do something it does make the newbie wonder why.
"If range is so important why did you build a gang that can not use range at all? Getting exactly what you pay for is not a bargain (67% increase in range for a 67% increase in price)."
ReplyDeleteIt's only 67% increase in price for the same increase in range if you completely ignore the other benefits it has over a spear gun (which you conveniently have). If you divide them evenly it's a 22% increase in price for each upgrade.
"Taken in that light the New Eavy is a fair deal at range, a bargain at armor modifier and a screwing at the other six stats on the two weapons because you pay 67% more for the same performance."
A 67% increase in price does not constitute a 67% increase in *all* stats. None of the other weapons work this way, and no one ever claimed that this was the intent behind the new statline.
"So under the old stats you got a 120% increase in range, a 25% increase in St and a 100% increase in save mod, with only 5 stats the same. All for a 67 % increase in price, yes that is a better deal."
Yeah, no shit. Did you read the part where I said that the old 'Eavy Shoota needed to be either repriced or re-stated? At the original stats it's worth more than 20 teef.
"Again, if range is so important why did you build a gang that can not use it at all?"
My mob makes its money on the thrust, not plinking at range. That said, I've done the 'Eavy Shoota + Up Armoured Truk mob. It's too good, and even if you ignore that it still makes available a play style that nobody wants to facilitate let alone dominate.
"It seems to me that it does not matter much. A spear gun at 18 inches shoots just as accurately as an Eavy at 18 inches. Once in range, there is no difference in their shooting characteristcs."
There is a difference in their shooting characteristics, the 'Eavy Shoota still has a better save mod and knockback (which you've decided to ignore again). Even so, once you've pulled within 18" you've also likely gotten within your target's range, which means you'll be taking return fire. It also means that if you started at over 24" you thrusted to get there, which means you'll be hitting less often. You also can't overwatch as much area. Regardless of whether or not *you* think it significant, range is a major factor.
"A Nob with a BS 4 firing at -1 modifier is the same as a digga with BS 3 firing at no modifier. AT range, I have the same chances of hitting either way, and knockback seems to accomplish nothing."
You're ignoring the other mods you took (like the additional -1 for shooting at a thrusting target) as well as needing to penetrate armour.
"Two games played and another six or so I have watched you guys play, but it is a small sample size."
Really, when did you watch us play any games? Because by my count you've watched one game (John and I) and played 2. I've never seen you at any other GoMo games in 15 years. Even assuming you have in fact seen a few games, I've played through two complete campaigns where the original 'Eavy Shoota was a problem, of which I've seen both sides.
"However, my observations also include that fact that no one else seems to take the weapon with knockback either. So if the experienced players do, or do not do something it does make the newbie wonder why."
What do you mean "no one else takes it"? You've seen two mobs so far, one of which is a grot mob . In fact most mobs in my experience give their nob a kannon. *I* don't have one because I don't think the -1 is worth the st increase early in a campaign (and I can't afford it), but it's *very* common for mobs to have kannons.
Mike, I too hate the gutted eavy shoota. But I already fought that battle and this is the best I could get.
ReplyDeleteIn my mind, if it had to be changed (and that's "if", because it was more the players than the game), I would have dropped the range to 30" and called it a day. At worst down to 24".